Gen Con LLC Community

Yufa King:

Cerridwyn1st:

There are some truely fantastic painters out there who DON'T paint for a living.  There are some not-so-great ones who DO paint for a living.  If you tag 4th place as Best Hobby Painter, does that mean that someone like my friend Vidal (a hobby painter) gets relegated to fourth instead of first in the catagory because he ISN'T a pro?

Look, I fit some of your criteria for someone who isn't a hobby painter.  I paint for extra income for my family.  I teach painting seminars at Gen Con and other conventions.  I am a volunteer rep for one of the manufacturers and I've painted an army for their demo models.  Am I as good as Jen or Marike?  Yeah, right...

There is no easy way to distinguish Master or Pro from anyone else.  To do so punishes the really good people for being good. It would create a barrier for those who are less well-known to kicking some pro butt.

Your friend Vidal, if he thinks his work good enough to compete against the likes of Marike, can choose to not denote his works as those of a hobby painter.

And, it is just as easy to say that not having seperate categories for those who are professionals and those who are hobbyists punishes those who paint for fun a few hours a week.

I guess that matters if you don't want the competition to have a higher level of meaning. I agree with Sue, if you enter a competiton, it should be to challenge yourself against the best around you. If you win, great...if not, you can improve or congradulate those that did and recognize their dedication to something. Your comment above goes back to your previous analogy, but now you'd like to enter the Tour De' France, but not have the previous mentioned riders compete..so that other riders are not "punished" as you say.

In the end, its a competition...not everyone can win. I'm just not sure why everyone can't have fun with NOT winning anymore nowadays.

I do want to point out something that you said in the first paragraph. You said that if these instructors teach enough classes and volunteer hours, then they get the same deal as GM and volunteers. Well, if they get the same deal as volunteers, then aren't they volunteers themselves? And if they are volunteers, doesn't it say on the rules that volunteers are not eligible for competition?

According to Websters Dictionary:

Volunteer: 1) A person who voluntarily offers himself or herself for a service or undertaking 2) A person who performs a service willing and without pay.

You know, if this wasn't a problem, then no one would be replying to me and would just ignore what I wrote, but obviously I have hit a nerve on both sides. And as for this being the Tour De France of gaming, it really isn't. It is just a large local competition. If it was such a world wide competition, then why is there a GenCon SoCal, a GenCon UK, etc.

And in closing, if you believe as I do, that these "volunteers" are ineligible, let's have a change next year.

This is from Jen Haley, a well-respected miniature artist:

I think what might help me would be some feedback from the judges.  I'm probably never going to palce, but it would be nice to see how well I did.  When I picked up my mini this year the person at the desk said I got a prize (at badge holder).  I asked her if that was like an honorable mention or something.  She told me no, that everyone got one.

 So I had no real feedback.  I don't know if I made any cuts.  People seemed to like the entry (I entered the anime school girl), but I don't have any idea if the judges liked the effect I was going for.

I was thinking a grading like they do at the county fairs might work.  Work gets graded on an A to D scale.  The painter can see the grade when they pick up their mini.  There would be no limit in the amount of each grade given out.  The winners would then be chosen from the A category, but there could be A level figures that don't win.

This would give me something to strive for each year.  If I received a C one year, a B the next would show improvement.  I don't think this would be that hard for the judges to do.  County fair judges do it for many more entries than what we have in the mini competition.

 Just some thoughts.  Take them or leave them.

Andy

Yufa King:

I don't know where you get off talking about me having some sort of sense of entitlement, but you are way off base on that.  I do not have any sense of entitlement.  As for painting, I've been painting miniatures for nearly 20 years now.  But, I don't happen to paint for a living.  It is a hobby for me.  So, those who paint for a living may paint more in 1 year than I've painted in the last 20.  And, GenCon is not a professional gaming convention.  Very few people who attend GenCon get paid for running their games and playing their games.  While it may be the largest convention in the country, it is nowhere near being on the same comparative level as the Tour De France. 

Well, my comments about entitlement were not directed specifically at you; it was at the attitude of this thread in general.  But, if you took personal offense to it, then it seems likely that it did strike a chord with you, so perhaps it applies to you as well.  And this whole cycling thing is your analogy, not mine.  GenCon does indeed represent a major event in the gaming world, on par with the Tour in its importance.  A number of national tournaments and events crown their champions at GenCon; the fact that the people running or playing in them may or may not get paid to be part of the industry is irrelevant.

 My point is quite simply that these "professional" painters weren't always paid for their work; at some point they were a hobby painter too.  If you want to bemoan the fact that they spend more hours a week painting than you, that gets no sympathy from me.  This is not just a matter of time, it is also a matter of skill.  By your own admission, you paint from 1-3 hours a week.  Let's say that averages out to 2 hours a week; if you start painting now for next year's GenCon, that means you have well over a 100 hours to put into a piece for it... the kind of time that the "professionals" often put into their entries.  If after spending that much time on the project, you are still unable to equal them, then face facts that they are simply more talented than you, rather than demanding that there should be some sort of special considerations for amatuers.  If you can't (or won't) push yourself to the level of the people that are winning the competition now, then you don't deserve to win.  The only way you get better is to work at it; to strive to be something better than what you already are.  If you aren't going to do that, then be happy as a hobby painter, and go win your local competitions instead.

 ~v

DarkKnight:

You know, if this wasn't a problem, then no one would be replying to me and would just ignore what I wrote, but obviously I have hit a nerve on both sides.

 Ummm... yeah, you hit a nerve and got responses.  You started this whole thread by purposefully being accusatory, insulting, and generally throwing inflammatory language and attitude around as much as possible.  You basically called everyone involved a lying cheat.  And you think you got responses ONLY because there must be some sort of problem...?

 
Whatever.  You're going to firmly believe whatever you're going to believe no matter what any of us says.  Just be aware that accusing Sue and her judges and everyone involved with the whole competition of lying, cheating, and fixing the competition isn't going to win you any points with many people.  A whole lot of people in the industry will tell you Sue is one of the most honest people with the best integrity you could imagine.

 
And personally, I think the idea of some sort of a grade, similar to county fair competitions, might be feasible.
 

DarkKnight:

I do want to point out something that you said in the first paragraph. You said that if these instructors teach enough classes and volunteer hours, then they get the same deal as GM and volunteers. Well, if they get the same deal as volunteers, then aren't they volunteers themselves? And if they are volunteers, doesn't it say on the rules that volunteers are not eligible for competition?

According to Websters Dictionary:

Volunteer: 1) A person who voluntarily offers himself or herself for a service or undertaking 2) A person who performs a service willing and without pay.

You know, if this wasn't a problem, then no one would be replying to me and would just ignore what I wrote, but obviously I have hit a nerve on both sides. And as for this being the Tour De France of gaming, it really isn't. It is just a large local competition. If it was such a world wide competition, then why is there a GenCon SoCal, a GenCon UK, etc.

And in closing, if you believe as I do, that these "volunteers" are ineligible, let's have a change next year.

I haven't finished the thread yet...trying to figure out where I can fit a word in!  But this I should address officially...

1. Gen Con employees, Gen Con Competition Management, Gen Con Competition Administration Volunteers, and Gen Con Competition Judges are not eligible for entry.

Only those volunteers and judges dealing with the competition cannot enter.  Regular Gen Con volunteers, not involved with the competition, are welcome to enter. 

ando:

I think what might help me would be some feedback from the judges.  I'm probably never going to palce, but it would be nice to see how well I did.  When I picked up my mini this year the person at the desk said I got a prize (at badge holder).  I asked her if that was like an honorable mention or something.  She told me no, that everyone got one.

 So I had no real feedback.  I don't know if I made any cuts.  People seemed to like the entry (I entered the anime school girl), but I don't have any idea if the judges liked the effect I was going for.

I was thinking a grading like they do at the county fairs might work.  Work gets graded on an A to D scale.  The painter can see the grade when they pick up their mini.  There would be no limit in the amount of each grade given out.  The winners would then be chosen from the A category, but there could be A level figures that don't win.

This would give me something to strive for each year.  If I received a C one year, a B the next would show improvement.  I don't think this would be that hard for the judges to do.  County fair judges do it for many more entries than what we have in the mini competition.

 

Feedback direct from judges is something we've tried to do in the past.  Seriously, the time it takes to switch gears and write out notes was just too consuming.  We discussed one category, first and second place, for 45 minutes.  It basically takes us 4-5 hours of judging and about 4-5 hours of paperwork to complete the competition.  Grading a mini on paperwork would seriously slow us down and have little meaning in our own judging process--not that an A wouldn't be considered in the winners circle, but a B might as well since most of these minis are being judged apples and oranges...is the bad technique on this piece worse than the mold line on this one?  The grades have been suggested in the past, but don't work well with our system of discussion and debate among the judges, finding the very good pieces in the case and then seeing if others in the case are good enough to beat those pieces.  As explained in the rules, we don't have first cuts officially, and it wouldn't mean the same thing like at Games Day.  What we do try and do is narrow it to about 5-10 pieces...more in the Single Fig category...and those are the best, or runners up.  Those we usually do put on a separate shelf.  I am unsure of the benefits of officially designating them as runners up in the cases, as in some categories it would be little or nothing there.

What I do encourage people to do is check with one of the judges and get feedback, check with a good painter and get feedback, take it to a class with you and get feedback.  I think you get much better feedback in person than online or anything I'd jot down on paper, but online communities are there for feedback as well.  Most of the feedback I have to give deals with the sharpness of your painting/neatness, smoothness of the paint, having the model undernneath as smooth and looking good as you can befrore paint hits it (mold lines and bad joins), and composition or color choice and why it works or doesn't work.

ando:

I think what might help me would be some feedback from the judges. 

   It can be very helpful. I don't know if they had it this year, but last year there was an event called "critique my mini" or something like that where the whole point was to have a pro look at your work and give your pointers. I attended that, and I had to run down, get my competetion entry out of the case and run back. It really was fantastic and helped push me to a new level.  At the same time, it's a hard event. You sit down with the best mini you have ever painted, and someone you've never met points out every single flaw on it. You have to have some resilliance to hear that, and learn from it.

  Take your figures with you to any of the classes you sign up for, and ask the instructor if they can take a moment to look at your best pieces. In my experience, they have all been extremely helpful and friendly.

Yufa King:

  While it may be the largest convention in the country, it is nowhere near being on the same comparative level as the Tour De France.  GenCon IS a local gaming convention that just happens to be bigger than the rest. 

   Name a bigger more noteworthy painting competetion. There may be one. You try for a golden demon, you will be facing the same level of competetion, but not higher. I'm sorry, but you are just flat out wrong on this one. If you weren't, you wouldn't have this complaint, because you wouldn't be looking at competing with the people who you are going up against.

  If you want to avoid facing off against the industry greats, try to second guess the field and paint something by an unpopular manufacturer. I'm really curious which manufacturers awards went unawarded this year, so I can paint something by them next year. I didn't complete my dragon in time for this year, but I know I wouldn't have won with all the competetion it would have been facing. Still, he looks better than he would have if I'd been doing him just for me.

Cerridwyn1st:

This is an argument that has been made many times, but the question is, how do you determine who is a "Master"?  If the determining factor is getting paid for your work, then people like me would still be competing against the likes of Marike and Jen Haley.  Same thing for setting teachers as "Masters".  I'm NOT a Master, though I've been paid for painting minis and I've taught classes.

Yufa King:

I don't think that the painting competition is fixed, but it is extremely daunting to think that amateurs who paint for a hobby will be competing against professionals who paint for a living.

Ill tell y'all what - Im not a professional painter, im a highschool teacher (grade 9-12)who paints "for fun" as it has been put in an earlier post. That being said when I paint "for fun" if I intend to enter it into a competition then I also pay strict attention to the details, the composition the finish and technique. Almost all of my entries for any competition (Golden Demons included) have been pieces from my armies that I play with. The rest have been fun little dioramas. I have taught at Gencon a year ago - specifically about preparing miniatures for competition - perhaps some of you who complain should have taken my class... Bottom line is I am certainly not a professional painter. Several of the other instructors/guests can say much the same - one I know stays at home and raises 3 children under th age of 6 - try dealing with that screaming drooling diaper filled posse and still making some of the most beautiful models anyone has ever seen by working only after the children have gone to sleep and still making proper time for a relationship with your wife. Astounds me constantly. Another I know of is a corporate resercher, like I said im a teacher, at least one other I know is a cop. Amateurs who have worked our tails off to be competitive and share our work with others.

Here is the deal - you need to plan, practice,and work hard at your craft - just like anything else in life - if you want to be recognised for your talents and skills. I have placed higher in competition and lower in competitions than several of the other teachers. You cant win every time - you can only guage what you have done, learn and move onward and upward. So I keep putting my work out there - sometimes even if it isnt my best or definitely no tthe best - because If I dont show then i dont share, I cant discuss and I will find it increasingly hard to grow as an artist.

That all aside I can also say that Id rather compete against quality painters and come out ahead or even just behind and have learned or seen something special and new than win by default because everyone else sucked as much or more than me.

Gotta tell you guys, if you think it sucks to loose at Gen Con, you should try competing in some of the really small competitions.  Some of those judges don't know good painting from their own behinds.  I flat-out told the judge of one competition that if she couldn't see the effort that went into what should have been Best in Show, she shouldn't be judging.  That went over well...

Anyway, at least at Gen Con if you loose it'd because someone else is better than you.  Not because the judge doesn't know enough about painting technique to tell a stellar piece from something that just looks flashy.

ando:

I think what might help me would be some feedback from the judges. 

Hey Ando - I agree with this - feedback is a wonderful tool for helping to develop. I spent quite a bit of time a year ago discussing pieces with people after the Gencon Judging. I was not competing (as I was helping judge) but I had Anne Forrester from Reaper critique a few of the display pieces I had for my classes. - If you are ever at a con with her she gives the most straightforward on the money advice you will find everywhere. Do not go see her if your ego bruises easily - Do go see her if you want genuine tips on improving.

That being said - I wasnt there this year Ando and didnt se your model,  but if you contact me through my site www.lostinthewarp.com and send a batch of high quality pictures of your piece I would be more than happy to give some personal advice from one development hungry painter to another. Darkknight - if you are ready to accept that this isnt all an evil conspiracy Id be more than happy to look yours over too...

Ok A: mod hat on:

Clearly this is a very important issue to some people, and I'm fine with allowing constructive debate to continue; however, please keep it respectful of other people, because if this can't be discussed in a civil manner, we'll have to close the thread.

Ok B: mod hat off:

I agree that entering the painting competition can be a bit daunting.  I have yet to enter the painting competition proper.  I ALMOST did, but was very unhappy with one of the last things on my mini, and so I did not enter her.  I've decided that shortly, I will pick out something to start working on for NEXT year.  But the past few years, what I've been doing at Gen Con is taking at least one painting class, and doing several speed painting sessions.  I have gradually, over time, become better; and I even won a speed painting initial heat, something I never ever thought would happen.  So now I'm at the point where I do feel comfortable submitting a mini.  I don't think it will win or even place, but I think that working on it and other minis for next year will continue to improve my painting skills.

And then, I agree it's difficult too, becuase I do think of certain people as "professionals", and I guess technically they are since they have been paid at times to paint miniatures; however, as noted above, almost none of them support themselves painting minis; so, I mean, in a sense, to me they are just dedicated hobbyists, more dedicated than me to minipainting.  I love minipainting, but I've got a lot of other hobbies/interests, and with my time split amongst them, I choose to spend less time on that hobby than I theoritically could if I dropped hobbies.  Should someone else be excluded from entering the contest just becuase they devote all their spare hobby time to painting, and are therefore waaaay better than me?  I don't know, that doesn't sound right to me.

But yes, I am a mediocre painter, so I do see the issue, and I might have submitted a mini for competition sooner if I hadn't been keenly aware of how strong the submissions usually are at Gen Con.  Still, I have no one but myself to blame for not submitting minis for some of the manufacturer's awards that went unawarded.

I have a suggestion.  I don't know if it would be administratively possible for Sue to do, since they already are so short on time for judging; what if there were also a Novice/Newcomer award?  When you submit a mini for judging, IF you have never submitted a mini for competition at Gen Con before, and if you choose, you can request that your mini, regardless of whatever category it is in for judging, also be considered for a novice/newcomer award.  This way, there's no question of attempting to verify or write rules for who would be considered a pro, and who would be considered an amateur.  I think it would definitely encourage people to submit minis who haven't before, and it may get them hooked. :)  Just a thought, not sure how well it would work practically speaking.

I knew you'd be around somewhere with a watchful eye. :-)

The discussion is necessary, and yes, I hope everyone can keep it civil.  This sort of brainstorming, problem solving, hashing out of issues, can sometimes lead to fantastic ideas and changes, which I am always on the watch for and open to.   

Newcomer award would still be very difficult...we'd have to go through all the lists from past years to make sure who would really be part of that list of "newcomers", and I only have the lists from my years on paper, nothing prior, so enforcing that one would be next to impossible I think, without more volunteers and more access to the last 40 years.  How much do we trust people when they say they've never entered?  And jeremie bonamant has never entered Gen Con before, but he's a top quality painter with many awards under his belt...so Novice award then...and I guess I'm jaded in that I don't think I'd trust everyone to follow that designation without someone saying they aren't a novice and they cheated.

Still, I'm looking at ideas like increasing the "theme" awards from other companies that don't manufacturer minis.  Keeping the random swag going to non-Gen Con winners.  One award per painter per category, highest award in a category sticks, the others go to the next best or possibly cutting it to one entry per category per painter.

Not sure I like the "One award per painter" idea.  That would encourage people to enter more categories, where now they will only do one or two.  Same thing for one entry per category.

Cerridwyn1st:

Not sure I like the "One award per painter" idea.  That would encourage people to enter more categories, where now they will only do one or two.  Same thing for one entry per category.

If there was a limit of one award per painter and if a painter entered every single category it would have no real impact on the outcome as once they won one category their other entries would be invalid.  Sure, they might enter a category that they never really would have entered in the past, but odds are that they won't do so well in those new categories.

PaintMinion:

I knew you'd be around somewhere with a watchful eye. :-)

The discussion is necessary, and yes, I hope everyone can keep it civil.  This sort of brainstorming, problem solving, hashing out of issues, can sometimes lead to fantastic ideas and changes, which I am always on the watch for and open to.   

Newcomer award would still be very difficult...we'd have to go through all the lists from past years to make sure who would really be part of that list of "newcomers", and I only have the lists from my years on paper, nothing prior, so enforcing that one would be next to impossible I think, without more volunteers and more access to the last 40 years.  How much do we trust people when they say they've never entered?  And jeremie bonamant has never entered Gen Con before, but he's a top quality painter with many awards under his belt...so Novice award then...and I guess I'm jaded in that I don't think I'd trust everyone to follow that designation without someone saying they aren't a novice and they cheated.

Still, I'm looking at ideas like increasing the "theme" awards from other companies that don't manufacturer minis.  Keeping the random swag going to non-Gen Con winners.  One award per painter per category, highest award in a category sticks, the others go to the next best or possibly cutting it to one entry per category per painter.

 

You could always start with a clean slate and "track newbies" starting next year.  While there is no way to fully enforce a rule that requires people to be honest about being a first time entrant, it could be easy to at least make it difficult for people to be dishonest about it.  You could require that in order to be classified as a first time entrant that you show your badge and a driver's license, passport, state, or school ID with a matching name and picture.  Even that won't stop someone from "breaking" this rule, but there is no way to fully enforce any rule.  You can only hope to make it really annoying for those who would attempt to break this rule.  It is true that you can't trust everyone, but you can't go around trusing no one, right?  I think that if you give most people the benefit of the doubt that having a "first time entrant" category or single award that you can make it as fair as possible for all involved.

I don't think that's quite how it would work.  If you have two entries per category, then only one of them can win in THAT category.  Winning in one category would not invalidate all your entries.

Cerridwyn1st:

I don't think that's quite how it would work.  If you have two entries per category, then only one of them can win in THAT category.  Winning in one category would not invalidate all your entries.

But you mentioned "One award per painter."  If it was one award per painter then it would work that way, wouldn't it?