Gen Con Community

"RPGA Events, THE RPG?" or "RPGA EVENTS, The Waiting?" A game of suspense and frustration?

PunkRockSonja:

Alright guys, let's keep it civil. We've done a really good job so far of keeping things as civil as possible. And I know this lack of information we're getting sucks big time. The only ones who can give us the answer won't give it at the time and till they do, we just need to wait till August and see what happens. And keep speculating just a bit and keep figners crossed!

Yeah. Love them or hate them (RPGA), but no reason to beat up on fellow on attendees. Maybe as a community we can plan for the worse and come up with some off-schedule games to fill the possible gap?

All I can say is this, remember how WOTC has treated us during this, before you lay out the money for 4e!  There are alot of other good products out there.

That is very true, money talks loudest.

Redstone:

All I can say is this, remember how WOTC has treated us during this, before you lay out the money for 4e!  There are alot of other good products out there.

How have they treated you?  People here are asking for 100% transperacy on a potential legal matter for a multi-billion dollar company. Ya that's gonna happen. You're assumming somebody in the RPGA or Wotc even has an answer to give. It could be tied up in Hasbro legal or who knows where for all we know. My department at work is a sub-dept of the General Counsel for a Fortune 500 Company. I hate dealing with them and I work with them. It's nothing but legal mumbo-jumbo and nobody wanting to stick their neck out for any kind of risk without thirty different signatures. I'm guessing it's the same at any large company.

Gencon is in bankruptcy. That means lawyers. NOTHING that involves lawyers is simple no matter how much somebody claims to know or what they think is going on. I love Gencon but let's also remember Gencon declared bankruptcy and caused the potential issue here. No other attendee at the show is owed the massive sum (it's a half million dollars people - that's a really noticable chunk of change for a company even Hasbro's size and especially a smaller division of that company like Wotc) of money like Wotc is. If Upper Deck or Goodman games was owed that much money I'm sure they would be doing the same (I bet Goodman wished somebody owed them that much though LOL).

Dave C
(My thoughts and nothing bearing on anything I know or don't know cuz I don't)

wavester:

Redstone:

All I can say is this, remember how WOTC has treated us during this, before you lay out the money for 4e!  There are alot of other good products out there.

How have they treated you?  People here are asking for 100% transperacy on a potential legal matter for a multi-billion dollar company. Ya that's gonna happen. You're assumming somebody in the RPGA or Wotc even has an answer to give. It could be tied up in Hasbro legal or who knows where for all we know. My department at work is a sub-dept of the General Counsel for a Fortune 500 Company. I hate dealing with them and I work with them. It's nothing but legal mumbo-jumbo and nobody wanting to stick their neck out for any kind of risk without thirty different signatures. I'm guessing it's the same at any large company.

Gencon is in bankruptcy. That means lawyers. NOTHING that involves lawyers is simple no matter how much somebody claims to know or what they think is going on. I love Gencon but let's also remember Gencon declared bankruptcy and caused the potential issue here. No other attendee at the show is owed the massive sum (it's a half million dollars people - that's a really noticable chunk of change for a company even Hasbro's size and especially a smaller division of that company like Wotc) of money like Wotc is. If Upper Deck or Goodman games was owed that much money I'm sure they would be doing the same (I bet Goodman wished somebody owed them that much though LOL).

Dave C
(My thoughts and nothing bearing on anything I know or don't know cuz I don't)

Most people aren't asking for transparency, Dave. They are asking for understanding that they believed WotC's boards and bought hotels, tickets and made vacation plans. Now WotC won't even give them a timeline on when they expect to have an answer. How about a simple..

"Hi...we really understand the frustration many of you are feeling regarding the lack of events at GenCon this year. We want to participate, but right now we don't believe we be able to respond until (fill in the blank). Thanks for your patience."

When that date doesn't hit...we all know dates slip and things happen...come back on and say..."Sorry, we'd hoped to have an answer, but here's the new target date."

Yeah...some people will think that's not enough, but some people will always be mad. This answer is for those who just want some consideration that they spent money and time on your product. That's all. Definately don't follow Chris Tulach's model on the boards and ask people who've ponied up deposits, airline tickets, and vacation notices to work "Why are you guys so impatient?" Now THAT'S Inconsiderate.

I'll never understand the thinking of companies.

A) Gencon takes in money during Gencon. The more people who go to gencon, the more money. The more money, the more likely it is that WotC will be paid. Since WotC wants their money, they should do everything within reason (such as attending) to insure Gencon takes in enough money to pay WotC.

B) Refuse to attend. Refuse to give information. Refuse to even send a minimal showing. Irritate not only Gencon's customers, but WotC's themselves. Don't send the RPGA.

This is like my sister's bankruptcy. The creditors wanted her to sell everything, including her car, so that she couldn't work, instead of working with her to let her pay back what she owed in smaller amounts. Or when a friend got behind after an accident, he called and begged his mortgage company to let him make smaller payments for 6 months. They not only said no, they repossessed. The ironic thing? Because of the decrease in housing, the fact that they were the second mortgage, they got /no/ money at all from him. The primary company got what was made on the house. So working with him, would have gotten money, but more slowly, not working with him got nothing (after the house was repossessed, he declared bankrupty, the nonreorg kind, before the laws changed). This just seems like cutting off feet to spite the body, you know?

I am not a lawyer, and do not have the faintest clue as to what restrictions the company may be under in this case.  But I do find it hard to believe that WOTC is unable to post a statement that says in the very least "We're sorry, but do to legal constraints we cannot comment....."  or something along those lines.

 WOTC is owned by gamers!  I realize that they are in turned owed by Hasbro, but I remember the Gencon when they had a simple booth and first released Magic.  So therefore, I would expect them to understand our frustration and make some effort to keep us informed.  This just comes across as callous indifference.  And just so you know, I in no way am blaming this on the RPGA.

Redstone:

I am not a lawyer, and do not have the faintest clue as to what restrictions the company may be under in this case.  But I do find it hard to believe that WOTC is unable to post a statement that says in the very least "We're sorry, but do to legal constraints we cannot comment....."  or something along those lines.

 WOTC is owned by gamers!  I realize that they are in turned owed by Hasbro, but I remember the Gencon when they had a simple booth and first released Magic.  So therefore, I would expect them to understand our frustration and make some effort to keep us informed.  This just comes across as callous indifference.  And just so you know, I in no way am blaming this on the RPGA.

They have given a statement.   Due to the Chapter 11, they can't attend.   If the Chapter 11 is resolved in time, they will.  

Cloak72:

Redstone:

I am not a lawyer, and do not have the faintest clue as to what restrictions the company may be under in this case.  But I do find it hard to believe that WOTC is unable to post a statement that says in the very least "We're sorry, but do to legal constraints we cannot comment....."  or something along those lines.

 WOTC is owned by gamers!  I realize that they are in turned owed by Hasbro, but I remember the Gencon when they had a simple booth and first released Magic.  So therefore, I would expect them to understand our frustration and make some effort to keep us informed.  This just comes across as callous indifference.  And just so you know, I in no way am blaming this on the RPGA.

They have given a statement.   Due to the Chapter 11, they can't attend.   If the Chapter 11 is resolved in time, they will.  

  It is not that they CAN not, they choose not. Most business do business with companies in chapter 11.

Where is the statement posted?

Outpost_Games-d:

Enough 'evidence' has been gathered by various people on this board for me to submit my opinion on GenCon and WOTC.

 

First, I'll talk a bit about Hasbro's problem with GenCon being in Bankruptcy and trying to do business.

Hasbro's problem with GenCon being in Bankruptcy is that GenCon is operating under a court-appointed trustee.  So, while GenCon would probably be okay with Hasbro using its $431K credit to offset the fees for GenCon 2008, the trustee cannot agree to that deal as it gives Hasbro preferential treatment as a creditor to the bankrupt GenCon.  In other words, Hasbro would be able to convert their 'credit' on a $1 for $1 basis for services and fees for GenCon, while Lucasfilm and Walt Disney could not.  The trustee cannot allow a deal like that; at least not without the unanimous consent of the creditors committee - and we can see that based on the number of creditors and the $$ involved, that is not likely to happen. 

 

So, it's not that Hasbro will not DO business with a company in bankruptcy or that Hasbro and GenCon don't WANT to work out a deal; it is that decision makers of both parties are extremely constrained in what they can do because of the restrictions of GenCon operating under bankruptcy protection.  Bankruptcy not only protects a company from creditors, but also protects each (small) creditor from the other (large/current) creditors as all parties scramble to get as much as they can from the bankrupt company.

Keep in mind that GenCon is 100% at fault here.  GenCon is the company that over-extended itself and sought bankruptcy protection from creditors.  Because of that, certain business decisions and transactions either are simply not possible or take much longer to execute.  The problems we are talking about on this list ALL began and end with GenCon, LLC, not WoTC!

 

In summary - Facts:

-GenCon LLC owes Hasbro $431K, which is probably just a bit less than what WOTC would normally pay to GenCon for the tremendous convention booth and display area plus the three very large organized play areas for MTG, RPGA and Miniatures (DDM, Star Wars, Axis & Allies) at GenCon.

-Hasbro is NOT going to pay for ALL the booth and play space as long as GenCon owes them the $431K and Hasbro cannot get $1 for $1 credit conversion; and the bankruptcy will not be discharged/resolved before GenCon.

-WOTC, the RPGA and DCI have committed to the end user gaming community to not only be at GenCon, but also to debut their new D&D 4e product with LFR at GenCon.

 

Current Opinion:

At the very last minute (like end of July), Hasbro and Gencon will reach an agreement (somehow) that will bring WOTC, the RPGA and DCI to GenCon; although in a much smaller footprint than in years past.  My expectation will be that the WOTC booth and display area will be 20-50% of the size it was in past years and that a lot of the organized play areas will be reduced or consolidated.

 

So, I am patiently waiting for an announcement after Origins (where the end user community will really be able to deliver some direct feedback to WoTC and RPGA) that Hasbro and GenCon have reached a tentative agreement.  I am keeping some slots open - I am already qualified for the D&D open and am a returning top-three finalist for the DCC open.  I just hope that I can login fast enough after GenCon posts the reduced set of RPGA events in late July to get the games I want.

 

Nobody is blaming WotC for this problem, Outpost. They are simply frustrated with the company's inability to articulate what you just did in simple customer service terms. WotC simply seems to feel  that if it says nothing on the subject it holds no accountability, that is not true. Ultimately, I feel the same you do...a deal will be reached and things will move again. However, WotC's arrogant attitude that this is everybody's fault but their own is not encouraging for the long term health of the company. Let's not forget it was Hasbro and LucasFilms that convinced genCon that Star Wars IV celebration was "no can lose" deal, and that is where most of this domino effect began. I'm still convinced that Lucas' arguments on  the debts owed to it are not born of actual financials, but on the blinded views of people who can't conceive that their product is just not worth what it once was.

Here's hoping you are right, and we all see something soon. Until then we can all enjoy listening to WotC and RPGA reps tell us we're just "impatient" and "annoying" when we ask about buying their product....yeah, there's a marketing lesson.

Outpost_Games-d, that is an good summary of the available information and shows some real research into the matter.  It is very hard to understand all of the background on these complicated events, that is why most of us interpret the events rather narrowly.  While I am not happy with WotC's absence, this helps make sense of it and shows how a difficult decision by GenCon has created dilemmas for many companies and people.

Outpost_Games-d:

Where is the statement posted?

Here is the staement most people have recieved from WotC CS:

Here is a brief FAQ concerning your questions:

Q: Why are there no D&D or Wizards events on the schedule posted for Gen Con at www.gencon.com?

A: Wizards had not submitted a schedule of events by the Gen Con deadline. Since we hadn’t submitted our own schedule, none of our events are in the official Gen Con schedule at this time.

Q: Will Wizards attend Gen Con in 2008?

A: As you may be aware, Gen Con is currently in chapter 11 bankruptcy. Wizards’ plans relative to Gen Con are dependent on the course of proceedings in US bankruptcy court. While we hope to participate in Gen Con, we must await further proceedings in the bankruptcy matter before we are able to confirm our plans.

 

Granted this has never been "officially" posted on the RPGA forums or on the WotC website, but only through specific questions and e-mails. It still states their desire to attend, but that they are awaiting a specific aspect of the bankruptcy proceeedings before committing. Is this the negotiaition of debt? Or conclusion of filings? Who knows. It would be nice if WotC could nail down that "drop-dead" date of when their decision will be complete. If that can even happen.

 One correction to that reply from WOTC, D&D mini's has been submitted.

there are over 15+ events for D*D Mini's tournament format on the event schedule, now it could be that that particular department submitted thier events prior to the HASBRO ban being handed down?  I dont know, but it seems a rather LARGE amount of events from a private party for a WOTC product, (of course it could have been canceled by now, I am not sure, its still on the catalog) and the TRUE DUNGEON events sponsored by WOTC?  15+ there as well

 

I probably just missed the "reasonable" explanation why some of thier products are scheduled regardless of Chapter 11.

 I dont disagree theres an issue between Hasbro, and Gencon, and like everyone else, I would like to recieve some information from WOTC on LFR/ MTG  at least give us an ALTERNATE, in case the chapter 11 fails to resolve, and they wont be attending gencon this year.

 

Tribe33:

 One correction to that reply from WOTC, D&D mini's has been submitted.

Those DDM events are not being run by WotC. In fact, though they use D&D Miniatures, the format is homebrew and doesn't really use the DDM rules.

 <And, dude, don't get a brother's hopes up like that! >

I also think the whole thing is kind of a bummer!  My son and I love playing the WotC Star Wars miniature events all weekend long, and getting the free SW miniature after each "match".  I know that my son is espically bummed, as that's the main thing he likes to do at Gencon.  Plus the people that usually play are super nice and fun to game with.  So...we will miss this alot.

However, it's not going to get us down too much, as there is so much to do at the convention.  This "set-back", for lack of a better description, will only give us an opportunities to try new and other things we have not done before at Gencon. 

So.........I say forget Hasbro/WotC and put my efforts in to meeting and supporting the companies that are going to be there to give us a good time.

David

Outpost Games,

You make some excellent points about why WOTC would not attend or at least wait until the last minute.  The issue is they continually announced and touted that Living Forgotten Realms will debut there.  Only now are they even admitting that is the reason for the delay.  It's not like this bankruptcy just happened.  And I doubt legal just told them.  So for their fans, instead of announcing "We will be there!"  They should have been saying we are planning to be there depending on the outcome of the bankruptcy.  Then people, such as myself, would have just waited to see.  I have not bought any tickets or booked flights or made reservations.  If they decide to go later, I might be inclined to try and go.  But for the many others who already bought their tickets, made reservations, etc, they are stuck.  They have committed to going now.

I bring up the question of why can't the RPGA host events?  First, it does not cost them money.  Second, if WOTC says RPGA HQ cannot go, then fine they don't.  Let some of the locals host the games just as if HQ was not going to attend any other event that hosts RPGA events and HQ does not go to.  If later, legal greenlights the convention, HQ can work with whoever started hosting to work out the details.  That is a win win for the fans.  Otherwise, WOTC is just saying "We're not bringing our toys, and you can't play with them either."  So how does hosting events that neither generates money directly or costs money directly have any bearing on the bankruptcy?

Only one issue, Outpost Games (well, only one MAJOR one).

So, I am patiently waiting for an announcement after Origins (where the end user community will really be able to deliver some direct feedback to WoTC and RPGA) that Hasbro and GenCon have reached a tentative agreement.  I am keeping some slots open - I am already qualified for the D&D open and am a returning top-three finalist for the DCC open.  I just hope that I can login fast enough after GenCon posts the reduced set of RPGA events in late July to get the games I want.

braewe:

You won't have to worry about logging in fast enough in July. Event reg will have long since closed. Instead, you'll be waiting in those gawdawful long lines we all attempt to avoid by registering online, or using generics. /Not/ something I am looking forward too.

Great........good thing my flight is wicked early this year.