Every player I've ever known has bought way more than just the PHB.

I can't find who actually said that... but let me just say that I don't own much more than the PHB.  I own the Mongoose PHB and DMG.  I bought the Complete Divine a long time ago because i loved playing Warpriests so much.  I won the Exalted Deeds at Gencon one year.  That's it for the books I own for 3.5 even though it is the main RPG I play. 

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Seeing as there were more people playing AD&D 2nd ed then than all the other editions combined today i would say you have a minority opinion. as for TSR going broke that was other issues, AD&D was a cash cow at the time. 

1s edition combined with 3rd? And you are basing this on what reports? Otherwise what numbers do you have to compare 2nd edition sales to 3rd edition besides your opinion?

No reports that you can likely get too, if you want a general picture just look at how TSR grew during the 2nd edition years. 

Legio-IX:

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Seeing as there were more people playing AD&D 2nd ed then than all the other editions combined today i would say you have a minority opinion. as for TSR going broke that was other issues, AD&D was a cash cow at the time. 

1s edition combined with 3rd? And you are basing this on what reports? Otherwise what numbers do you have to compare 2nd edition sales to 3rd edition besides your opinion?

 

No reports that you can likely get too, if you want a general picture just look at how TSR grew during the 2nd edition years. 

I'm not sure bankrupcy, blatant mismanagement, and TSR lawyers slapping lawsuits on burgeoning fansites is considered 'growing'.  Still, your claim as fact that 2nd edition has outsold all other editions combined is nothing more than a gross exaggeration until you can throw down some hard evidence to back it up. 

I'd be interested in seeing the sales for each edition. As someone who's played them all, I had to borrow stuff from D&D, being poor and broke. AD&D I got, in all, 3 PHB, 2DMG, 2UA, and about 10 other various books. 2ED, I got 3 PBH, 1 DMG, a BAZILLION books. All the softcover completes, the notebook MM (which includes every supplement I could get my hands on), the 4 Encylopedia's of Magic, and several boxed set adventures. 3.0/3.5 2 PHB, 2 DMG, 2 MM(Both 3.0. I just started adapting my 2ed monsters after that), all the Dragonlance supplements, about 4 of the FR supplements.

The reason for so many PHB in the 1st two editions was that our house hosted the weekly games, and we had a few poor broke players, so we bought extras to lend. I was also married at the time, and we each wanted our own PBH.

Now that my Dragonlance Campaign has died, I don't have a tt group, so the impetus to run out and get 4E is dwindling. I'd still get at least the 3 core if I were going to be playing RPGA, but there are no RPGA's nearby that I can find, so.

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Seeing as there were more people playing AD&D 2nd ed then than all the other editions combined today i would say you have a minority opinion. as for TSR going broke that was other issues, AD&D was a cash cow at the time. 

1s edition combined with 3rd? And you are basing this on what reports? Otherwise what numbers do you have to compare 2nd edition sales to 3rd edition besides your opinion?

 

No reports that you can likely get too, if you want a general picture just look at how TSR grew during the 2nd edition years. 

I'm not sure bankrupcy, blatant mismanagement, and TSR lawyers slapping lawsuits on burgeoning fansites is considered 'growing'.  Still, your claim as fact that 2nd edition has outsold all other editions combined is nothing more than a gross exaggeration until you can throw down some hard evidence to back it up. 

Given that AD&D was vastly more popular than 3.0 and had far fewer competitors it seems only logical that AD&D outsold 3.0/3.5. And since 2nd edition had so much more ancillary material than 1st edition it again only seems logical that 2nd edition would have generated the most sales of any edition. In gross dollars 3.0/3.5 is probably the highest due to inflation but I doubt the gross sales even come close.

facade:

Given that AD&D was vastly more popular than 3.0 and had far fewer competitors it seems only logical that AD&D outsold 3.0/3.5. And since 2nd edition had so much more ancillary material than 1st edition it again only seems logical that 2nd edition would have generated the most sales of any edition. In gross dollars 3.0/3.5 is probably the highest due to inflation but I doubt the gross sales even come close.

While 2nd edition and 3.0/3.5 (twice the amount of core books alone there sold) had the same lifespan, distribution of D&D has greatly expanded outside the obscurity of hobby and comic shops over the last few years.  Not even taking into account the sales of PDFs which was nonexistent during the TSR years, distribution has grown greatly with the rise of Amazon.com and other online ventures. Also, general book sellers like Barnes & Noble and Borders wasnt as prevelent and mammoth back when Walden Books was considered 'a big time' TSR dealer. 

 Besides, ancillary material was never big time sellers.  The more specialized a product got, the less of a target audience there was to buy it.  Some say that was one of the reasons for TSR's demise...putting out too many supplements for their various 'boxed set' campaigns at once (I personally ate up all the Planescape and Birthright stuff).  Its interesting that WOTC is finally learning from those mistakes with 4E and only putting out 3 books per campaign setting a year (a campaign guide, a players guide, and a DMs guide) as what was reported at GAMA....could be a smart move.

Sherilyn:

Every player I've ever known has bought way more than just the PHB.

I can't find who actually said that... but let me just say that I don't own much more than the PHB.  I own the Mongoose PHB and DMG.  I bought the Complete Divine a long time ago because i loved playing Warpriests so much.  I won the Exalted Deeds at Gencon one year.  That's it for the books I own for 3.5 even though it is the main RPG I play. 

I said it. The contention was that most players only buy the PHB and nothing else so that's why Wotc must pump out new editions in order to resell the PHB to stay afloat. My assertion is that players buy more than just the PHB. In my own personal experiences a lot more. While a player who tries the game and quits probably only buys the PHB, those of us who love the game continue to buy other things. In my opinion reselling the 3.5 PHB doesn't generate much money from the bulk of players who only bought the 3.0 PHB since they most likely quit playing and aren't going to buy another PHB. 3.5 PHBs were sold to we who love the game and support it through multiple purchases and new players who would have bought 3.0 just as readily.

Btw you also bought Gencon which was a TSR/Wotc product as well.

If you think we get in a tiff over some of WotC's decisions, you should hear what Tracy Hickman has to say. (http://www.dragonhearthproductions.com/) They pulled the Dragonlance license from Margaret Weis Productions, they cancelled releasing the 3rd book of their most current trilogy, starring Raistlin. The series is flying through the charts, yet they pull the 3rd of the series, with the single most popular character in the Dragonlance world. Look up the current podcast and listen to it. You'll find out that we are not the only ones not happy with some of the business decisions.

Marquis de GenCon:

facade:

Given that AD&D was vastly more popular than 3.0 and had far fewer competitors it seems only logical that AD&D outsold 3.0/3.5. And since 2nd edition had so much more ancillary material than 1st edition it again only seems logical that 2nd edition would have generated the most sales of any edition. In gross dollars 3.0/3.5 is probably the highest due to inflation but I doubt the gross sales even come close.

 

While 2nd edition and 3.0/3.5 (twice the amount of core books alone there sold) had the same lifespan, distribution of D&D has greatly expanded outside the obscurity of hobby and comic shops over the last few years.  Not even taking into account the sales of PDFs which was nonexistent during the TSR years, distribution has grown greatly with the rise of Amazon.com and other online ventures. Also, general book sellers like Barnes & Noble and Borders wasnt as prevelent and mammoth back when Walden Books was considered 'a big time' TSR dealer. 

 Besides, ancillary material was never big time sellers.  The more specialized a product got, the less of a target audience there was to buy it.  Some say that was one of the reasons for TSR's demise...putting out too many supplements for their various 'boxed set' campaigns at once (I personally ate up all the Planescape and Birthright stuff).  Its interesting that WOTC is finally learning from those mistakes with 4E and only putting out 3 books per campaign setting a year (a campaign guide, a players guide, and a DMs guide) as what was reported at GAMA....could be a smart move.

I would argue there is a middle ground. Too many campaign settings and you are competing with yourself and some lines are guaranteed to lose money. Not offering anything is leaving money on the table to be snapped up by third parties. If Wotc chooses only to sell the core rulebooks we are guaranteed they will be pumping out new editions as fast as they can. As soon as sales dip the only way they can make more money is to resell the core rulebooks. While this may be a good from a short term business perspective in the long run it is not good for the product and certainly not good for fans of D&D.

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Seeing as there were more people playing AD&D 2nd ed then than all the other editions combined today i would say you have a minority opinion. as for TSR going broke that was other issues, AD&D was a cash cow at the time. 

1s edition combined with 3rd? And you are basing this on what reports? Otherwise what numbers do you have to compare 2nd edition sales to 3rd edition besides your opinion?

 

No reports that you can likely get too, if you want a general picture just look at how TSR grew during the 2nd edition years. 

I'm not sure bankrupcy, blatant mismanagement, and TSR lawyers slapping lawsuits on burgeoning fansites is considered 'growing'.  Still, your claim as fact that 2nd edition has outsold all other editions combined is nothing more than a gross exaggeration until you can throw down some hard evidence to back it up. 

No it is my opinion based on facts I am privy to; through people that worked for TSR and/or WOTC, you however are free to come up with hard facts to disprove my assertion.  

facade:

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Seeing as there were more people playing AD&D 2nd ed then than all the other editions combined today i would say you have a minority opinion. as for TSR going broke that was other issues, AD&D was a cash cow at the time. 

1s edition combined with 3rd? And you are basing this on what reports? Otherwise what numbers do you have to compare 2nd edition sales to 3rd edition besides your opinion?

 

No reports that you can likely get too, if you want a general picture just look at how TSR grew during the 2nd edition years. 

I'm not sure bankrupcy, blatant mismanagement, and TSR lawyers slapping lawsuits on burgeoning fansites is considered 'growing'.  Still, your claim as fact that 2nd edition has outsold all other editions combined is nothing more than a gross exaggeration until you can throw down some hard evidence to back it up. 

Given that AD&D was vastly more popular than 3.0 and had far fewer competitors it seems only logical that AD&D outsold 3.0/3.5. And since 2nd edition had so much more ancillary material than 1st edition it again only seems logical that 2nd edition would have generated the most sales of any edition. In gross dollars 3.0/3.5 is probably the highest due to inflation but I doubt the gross sales even come close.

And that's just the core books. There are a ton of 3rd party d20 variants out now.  Then y9ou also have to factor in that the internet has also made 3.0 d and d a more standard brand. 

I for one am not going to sprout made up statictics, but I do remember Wizards marketing 3rd edition as the most popular d and d edition.   

Legio-IX:

No it is my opinion based on facts I am privy to; through people that worked for TSR and/or WOTC, you however are free to come up with hard facts to disprove my assertion. 

I'll take that as your 'escape clause' for a no win arguement... 

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

No it is my opinion based on facts I am privy to; through people that worked for TSR and/or WOTC, you however are free to come up with hard facts to disprove my assertion. 

 

I'll take that as your 'escape clause' for a no win arguement... 

Man, its always amazing to me what gamer's will do to "piss in the snow" about "their" edition of D&D. There are no hard facts out there to support either on of the claims made in here, unless you want to go back and analyze the Fund Reports of TSR and WotC/Hasbro for the last 27 years. Every business unit spins its numbers to show its marketing year was the best in history...its just business. According to WotC's reports on D&D, 3rd edition had 60 million customers at its peak....while TSR had 21 million in 1981. Yay...numbers. What does that mean though?

I know this much from meeting with lots of the game's developers from the 80's and into the 90's...as well as actually reading those Quarterly Reports (so sue me, HAS is on my e-mail reports, and I own stock). TSR in 1981 delivered the largest market share of gamers in the industry, as well as delivering the largest % increase in customers of any edition. This market share increase has never been duplicated by any other release of D&D product. So does that mean 3rd edition releases have been larger? No it means more nits were moved, but the share of new customers....according to surveys...did not match the 2nd edition launch. Are there numbers on this? Not officially, unless you want to request the Year-end reports for TSR from Hasbro vaults or the FTC and get WotC's reports for the last 10 years.

End game is...it doesn't matter. 2nd edition is popular...its personally my favorite system before Lor..oops almost said her name out loud....starting saturating the market with hundreds of supplemental handbooks and guides that added nothing to the core and hadn't been playtested properly because she wouldn't allow playing the game on premises (rumor, but I have had it somewhat validated). 3rd is popular and I liked it until they started saturating the market....ah well you get the idea.

WotC has a choice to make...and I think Tom summed it up best: Are they a gamer run organiztion that will deal with the game from that perspective, or a market driven professionals group who will do only what's best for the shareholders? Until they decide that...I don't see it going well for them.

dontadow:

facade:

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Marquis de GenCon:

Legio-IX:

Seeing as there were more people playing AD&D 2nd ed then than all the other editions combined today i would say you have a minority opinion. as for TSR going broke that was other issues, AD&D was a cash cow at the time. 

1s edition combined with 3rd? And you are basing this on what reports? Otherwise what numbers do you have to compare 2nd edition sales to 3rd edition besides your opinion?

 

No reports that you can likely get too, if you want a general picture just look at how TSR grew during the 2nd edition years. 

I'm not sure bankrupcy, blatant mismanagement, and TSR lawyers slapping lawsuits on burgeoning fansites is considered 'growing'.  Still, your claim as fact that 2nd edition has outsold all other editions combined is nothing more than a gross exaggeration until you can throw down some hard evidence to back it up. 

Given that AD&D was vastly more popular than 3.0 and had far fewer competitors it seems only logical that AD&D outsold 3.0/3.5. And since 2nd edition had so much more ancillary material than 1st edition it again only seems logical that 2nd edition would have generated the most sales of any edition. In gross dollars 3.0/3.5 is probably the highest due to inflation but I doubt the gross sales even come close.

I'm pretty sure your argument is wrong on this one.  You can not tell the weather by licking your thumb and sticking it in the air.  Logically, hasbro is a much larger company, with more distribution outlets and a bit more global power.  D and D books are in more comic book and main stream book stores now as well, where as that was not the case a few decades ago. 

And that's just the core books. There are a ton of 3rd party d20 variants out now.  Then y9ou also have to factor in that the internet has also made 3.0 d and d a more standard brand. 

I for one am not going to sprout made up statictics, but I do remember Wizards marketing 3rd edition as the most popular d and d edition.   

 

My recollection was that 2nd edition was sold in the mall bookstores and not just in gaming stores. There is certainly more outlets for 3rd edition though. But 2nd edition had no real competion. PC gaming was in its infancy. There was no online gaming to compete with until the end of its life cycle and even then it wasn't a serious contender. There was no other RPG anywhere near as popular. AD&D was the man.  I suspect Wotc claims 3rd edition was the most popular because of gross revenue. Given inflation its very likely 3rd edition generated the most revenue. I am not privy to TSR/Wotc sales figures so I can't say what is or is not the case.

Hawkwinter:

End game is...it doesn't matter. 2nd edition is popular...its personally my favorite system before Lor..oops almost said her name out loud....starting saturating the market with hundreds of supplemental handbooks and guides that added nothing to the core and hadn't been playtested properly because she wouldn't allow playing the game on premises (rumor, but I have had it somewhat validated). 3rd is popular and I liked it until they started saturating the market....ah well you get the idea.

Thankfully WOTC wasnt forced to put out a Buck Rogers RPG ala Lorrai--....dang, almost slipped out :-)

facade:

My recollection was that 2nd edition was sold in the mall bookstores and not just in gaming stores.

Yeah...Walden Books was considered its 'official' home as that retail chain was predominantly found in malls.  Still, no comparison to the megastores that Barnes & Noble and Borders are today. 

 Forget D&D. I'll stick with The Fantasy Trip, thank you very much.

atstepchild:

If you think we get in a tiff over some of WotC's decisions, you should hear what Tracy Hickman has to say. (http://www.dragonhearthproductions.com/) They pulled the Dragonlance license from Margaret Weis Productions, they cancelled releasing the 3rd book of their most current trilogy, starring Raistlin. The series is flying through the charts, yet they pull the 3rd of the series, with the single most popular character in the Dragonlance world. Look up the current podcast and listen to it. You'll find out that we are not the only ones not happy with some of the business decisions.

I just listen to the podcast and I can't believe they actually pulled Dragonlance. Might as well hand them the gun so they can shoot themselves in the foot a couple more times. I understood the whole not coming to Gen Con cause of the Bankruptcy from a business standpoint that makes a lot of sense. But to pull a book that would more then likely become another New York Times Best Seller, just leaves me baffled. I guess I'm strange and odd for being upset that it's not coming out. But I just can't seem to wrap my mind around it and the fact that they aren't even given the writers a real reason other then basically a well cause we can that's why.

atstepchild:

If you think we get in a tiff over some of WotC's decisions, you should hear what Tracy Hickman has to say. (http://www.dragonhearthproductions.com/) They pulled the Dragonlance license from Margaret Weis Productions, they cancelled releasing the 3rd book of their most current trilogy, starring Raistlin. The series is flying through the charts, yet they pull the 3rd of the series, with the single most popular character in the Dragonlance world. Look up the current podcast and listen to it. You'll find out that we are not the only ones not happy with some of the business decisions.

I'm signed up for a seminar that Tracy is putting on.  I'm sure I'll get to hear first hand about all the good thing that gets to be said.  And if they pulled the book, I guess the other two animated movies are shut down as well.